Tulpa.info - guide-discussion

If you feel this way, why did you just say that they aren't comparable?

Sorry, as I said I'm not continuing here. It's impolite and inconsistent with the spirit of the rules here to leak DMs, though.

It's impolite to lie in a public space and then send unsolicited DMs.

You're accusing me of lying now?

7:38 AM

Actually, never mind.

You felt free to mock the guide and mock people for defending the guide in public. Why are you so hesitant to defend those assertions in public?

I mean you're literally saying that the comparison both is and is not comparable. At the very worst, you're contradicting yourself.

I don't have any dissipated headmates

2:03 PM

I have headmates who wish they could be dissipated, but they still exist

2:04 PM

I certainly don't have 7, that's ridiculous

I think it is causes more harm to fight against dissipating than dissipation itself causes.

I think it's a little far to go around calling people hypocrites when you don't know the sort of pain our actions have caused us. It weighs on our conscience every single day that we have too many people in our head and they can't live fulfilling lives or that they don't want to exist at all. This isn't about making too many tulpas anyway, this is about immature or uninformed people going into tulpas too quickly without thinking of the risks or what it implies (edited)

2:06 PM

It's a very low blow to try to use us as an argument against that (edited)

Just gonna say, if you can drop a headmate just like that, either that headmate voluntarily went into the void for you or they were not truly a headmate but more like an imaginary friend.

Also it's possible both to have a child and do nothing to raise them, and to create a tulpa and abandon them. Neither is responsible. You chose to start doing it, and either way you now have someone other than you who is dependent on you for their existence.

One moment you said that if you could get rid of a tulpa against their will, it must actually not be a tulpa. The next you said that tulpas are dependent on their host for their existence, which not only directly contradicts the idea that the host can't get rid of a real tulpa but is also simply untrue. (edited)

1

Paul, HJP, Piano, Luxi, Luki, Luci and your host. Also Tacio, but you all dip in and out so often I can't keep track. But your actions have shown that tulpas are not a lifelong commitment, so stop saying it. Morally perhaps they should be, but they aren't. People can drop them easy, especially newcomers can join this community, be around for 3 months, and then forget they ever tried

Piano is here, Luxio is here, Paul and HJP still exist, the host still exists, Luki and Luci were never sentient in the first place, and Tass still exists

7:11 PM

We very much know that we made mistakes, things that we can't take back. We deeply regret our decisions, but we have learned from them. We don't want others to make the same mistakes we did

7:11 PM

We can't go back in time and change things, but we can help educate others so that they don't go down the same path that we did

7:12 PM

It's not fair to point at us as a reason for why others shouldn't be responsible considering we don't act that way anymore and we don't agree with past decisions that we made

7:12 PM

Now I'd appreciate if you drop this and think twice before strawmanning and slandering people like this

7:13 PM

It is highly inappropriate and uncalled for behavior

So creating Luki and Luci weren't a lifelong commitment. It's the same for newcomers. I know I'm cutting deep, but I'm not saying you've done anything wrong. I'm just saying that you need to actually give rwal reasons for people to not make more, to let tulpas be a lifelong commitment, and a readon to not dissipate them

Responsibility comes differently for everyone imo because different people can handle different levels of things and so it can get confusing. So it's good to learn from others to at least have a guess or a guideline for your own choices. I'm glad you're willing to share your experiences with the community, Felights, so we can all learn.

Drop it

@Bethel🌸 We get it, you are the GAT.

Actually I'm 1/7th it

7:18 PM

But yeah, I'll drop your system specifically. I'm still going to say it's a non-factor for crticizing the length and speed of Kopase's guide

imo its good to have both long and short guides for variety's sake

I'd agree. Kopase's is short. It's a non factor

7:21 PM

Or, it feels short, at least

Having shorter guides is fine

I'd like to see someone actually give a justification for the moral argument. In most situations, I agree with it. But I don't think it applies universally, and I don't see how it could be so all-consuming as to demand that new tulpamancers pass a bunch of dedication tests in order to be allowed to know how to make a tulpa.

No dedication tests, it's just generally better to take one's time researching before rushing into things

That's the entirety of the argument Asmask made against the guide though, near as I can tell. "This is too easy for a non-dedicated person to watch."

didn't Kopase's videos suggest the user do more research as well? I believe they did

I think they did as well.

7:25 PM

And there's a jump in the logic from "this is easy to watch even if you aren't dedicated yet" to "this will encourage people to make tulpas without being dedicated."

7:25 PM

You shouldn't have to already be dedicated to making a tulpa before you can learn how to make one and what that's like.

Agreed

That's exactly how you end up with people who shouldn't make tulpas making tulpas due to the sunk costs fallacy.

7:27 PM

I think that if you actually want people to adhere to a moral standard of lifelong dedication, then shorter guides that allow interested newcomers to learn about tulpamancy (and potential costs) before becoming invested will actually decrease how many people make tulpas only to end up dissipating them.

7:28 PM

And I also fundamentally disagree that someone should be morally expected to keep up a lifelong dedication if both the tulpa and the host are less happy than they were as a singlet.

@Mina similarly a child is dependent on you for everything but does not quickly or painlessly perish if you withdraw attention. An established tulpa isn't exactly dependent on you for attention either, but still lives in your brain. And if they're feeling particularly threatened by you, they can do a good deal to make you miserable.

eh

How is a tulpa dependent on you for everything?

9:10 PM

We've gone weeks without my host fronting before.

Exactly, an established tulpa is not

9:11 PM

A young tulpa is

or at least a tulpa that can front/switch is not or is to a lesser extent

I mean, we did that when the main tulpas who were fronting were less than 6 months old.

9:12 PM

Apollo makes a clearer point.

9:12 PM

It's not an issue of age so much as capability.

Age is not indicative of whether they're established

9:12 PM

Exactly (edited)

Establishment is not a measure of capability.

9:12 PM

You can be established as a tup who cannot front.

Yup. By established I mean they don't fade or black out if ignored for a bit.

But you also just said that if they fade away like that, they're not really tulpas. (edited)

They may be young tulpas

9:15 PM

Though even those won't be like "I decided to dissipate them, OK they're gone now"

9:15 PM

Unless ofc they are not independent at all yet

Kind of interesting how the GAT members will run down every possible logical proposition ad nauseum despite being only very tangentially related to any guide

In which case it's not much different than an imaginary friend

I mean, we did that before we were accepted into the GAT. We do that in our classroom discussions. The level of detailed information and accuracy produced by these methods is why we got accepted into the GAT.

9:17 PM

But, if the tulpa is entirely dependent on the host's attention for survival, how can it be said to be independent at all?

Yes, yes. It's just like the Platonic Academy.

On the one hand you're saying that if it's not independent, it's not a tulpa. On the other you are complaining that it's irresponsible to not commit to a tulpa because they aren't independent.

9:19 PM

If a tulpa is only dependent for a short time, and that dependence is what makes it into a commitment, then it is at best a short-term commitment. Perhaps a few months.

More because they still depend on you for a lot regardless. They'll never have their own bodies, they cannot experience the world except through you. They run on your brainpower.

I don't experience the world through my host any more than he experiences it through me.

You share a body though

I have my own body as much as he does.

Any time you're using it, he cannot

9:20 PM

Any time he uses it, you can cannot

Right. But that doesn't mean I'm dependent on him, that means we are both dependent on a shared resource.

Exactly. And that's a hell of a commitment to make.

That's like saying I'm dependent on you just because we shop at the same grocery store.

No, because I can always go to a different store

Not if it's the only store in town. That's not the situation I just described. (edited)

I can always move

You're intentionally ignoring the point.

Okay, I will address the point head on: it's a bad analogy. Many people can shop at the same store at once. I can interact with the world in ways other than shopping for groceries. You have nothing outside of your mind to interact with if he uses the shared body and doesn't let you use it.

You say that as if my host has the power to stop me.

Of course he doesn't - and that makes the commitment even more on his part. He shares his body with someone who can forcibly grab control.

But it means I'm not actually dependent on him.

If he didn't make you, he could use that body 100% of the time, without interference.

9:26 PM

You're dependent on each other. You're the same body.

9:26 PM

How is this not a huge lifelong commitment?

9:26 PM

Seems we're arguing pedantics now.

Well for one thing, there's nothing forcing us to maintain this arrangement.

9:27 PM

Secondly, I was not arguing with you over matters of commitment, I was arguing over your assertions about a tulpa's dependence on their host.

And what's the escape? One of you kills yourself for the other?

Merging is a thing.

Yes, then you both cease and the combined personality continues

Nah.

9:28 PM

I'm the end product of merging a servitor with a tulpa that dissipated herself and a part of my host.

9:28 PM

None of them ceased.

9:28 PM

I am all of them.